Jim Rogers On “Buying Panic” And Investments Nobody Is Talking About

By Nick Giambruno, Senior Editor, International Man

I am very pleased to have had the chance to speak with Jim Rogers, a legendary investor and true international man. Jim and I spoke about some of the most exciting investments and stock markets around the world that pretty much nobody else is talking about. You won't want to miss this fascinating discussion, which you'll find below.

Nick Giambruno: Tell us what you think it means to be a successful contrarian and how that relates to investing in crisis markets throughout the world.

Jim Rogers: Well, there are two aspects of it. One is being a trader, being able to buy panic, and nearly always if you are a trader or an investor, if you buy panic, you are going to do okay.

Sometimes it is better for the traders, because when there is a panic, a war breaks out or something like that, everything collapses, and some people are very good at jumping in and buying. Then, when the rally comes, the next day or the next month, they sell out.

Now, the people who are investors can also do that, but it usually takes longer for there to be a permanent rally. In other words, if there's a war and stocks go from 100 to 30 and everybody jumps in, it may rally up to 50, and then the traders will get out, it may go back to 30 again. I'm trying to make the differentiation between investors and traders buying panic.

As an investor, nearly always if you buy panic and you know what you are doing, and then hold on for a number of years, you are going to make a lot of money. You also have to be sure that your crisis or panic is not the end of the world, though. If war breaks out, you have got to make sure it's a temporary war.

I used to work with Roy Neuberger, who was one of the great traders of all time, and whenever stocks would panic down, he was usually one of the few buyers, because he knew he could get a rally—if not that day, at least maybe that week or that month. And he nearly always did. No matter how bad the news, especially if there's a huge drop, it's probably a good time to buy if you've got the staying power and your wits, because you will likely get a rally. In terms of panic buying or crisis situations, that's normally the way to play.

Now, it's not always easy, because you are having everybody you know, or everybody in the media shrieking what a fool you are to even try something like that. But if you have your wits about you and you know what you are doing, and you know enough about yourself, then chances are you will make a lot of money.

Nick Giambruno: What is the story behind your most successful investment in a crisis market or a blood-in-the-streets kind of situation?

Jim Rogers: Certainly commodities at the end of the '90s were everybody's favorite disaster, and yet for whatever reason, I had decided that it was not a disaster. In fact, it was a great opportunity and there were plenty of things to buy. In 1998, for instance, Merrill Lynch, which at the time was the largest broker, certainly in America and maybe the world, decided to close their commodity business, which they had had for a long time. I bought. That's when I started in the commodity business in a fairly big way. So that's the kind of example I am talking about. Everybody had more or less abandoned or were in the process of abandoning commodities, and yet, that's when I decided to go into commodities in a big way, because of what I considered fundamental reasons for doing it, but the fact that Merrill Lynch was getting out buttressed in my own mind anyway that I must be right, because, you know, everybody was out. Who was left to sell? There was nobody left to sell at that point.

Nick Giambruno: What about a particular country?

Jim Rogers: I first invested in China back in 1999 and then again in 2005. The market at those times was very, very bad. I invested again in November of 2008, when all markets around the world were collapsing, including in China. So I have certainly made investments in countries with crisis markets, and I'm getting a little better at it than I used to be, because I have had more experience now. That's why I keep emphasizing that you have to know what you're doing. And by that I mean paying attention to and doing your homework on a stock or a commodity or a country. If you do that with a crisis market, then chances are you can move in and make some money.

Nick Giambruno: In your opinion, which countries today do you think offer the best crisis or "blood in the streets" type opportunities?

Jim Rogers: I think Russia is probably one of the most hated markets in the world. I don't think many people have a nice thing to say about Russia or Putin. I was pessimistic on Russia from 1966 to 2012, that's 46 years. But I've come to the conclusion that since it is so hated, and you should always look at markets that are hated, that there are probably good opportunities in Russia right now.

Nick Giambruno: Doug Casey and I were recently in the crisis-stricken country of Cyprus, which is also a pretty hated market, for obvious reasons. While we were there, we found some pretty remarkable bargains on the Cyprus Stock Exchange which we detailed in a new report called Crisis Investing in Cyprus. Companies that are still producing earnings, paying dividends, have plenty of cash (in most cases outside of the country), little to no debt, and trading for literally pennies on the dollar. What are your thoughts on Cyprus?

Jim Rogers: When I saw what you guys did, I thought, "That's brilliant, I wish I had thought of it, and I'll claim that I thought of it" (laughs). But it was really one of those things where I said, "Oh gosh, why didn't I think of that," because it was so obvious that you are going to find something.

It's also obvious, after what happened in Cyprus, that it's a place where one should investigate. Whether it is right to buy now or not, you are certainly right to look into it. If you stay with it and you know what you are doing, you do your homework, you are probably going to find some astonishing opportunities in Cyprus. It's the kind of thing that I'm talking about and that you are talking about.

(Editor's Note: You can find more info on Crisis Investing in Cyprus here.)

Nick Giambruno: Speaking of hated markets that literally nobody is getting into, I heard that you managed to find a way to get some sort of exposure to North Korea through bullion coins. Could you tell us about that?

Jim Rogers: Yeah, you know, it's illegal for Americans to invest in North Korea. It's probably illegal for us to even say the word "North Korea" (laughs). I look around to see which countries are hated. In North Korea there is no stock market, and there is no way to invest, especially if you are an American, but sometimes you can find something in a secondary market.

Stamps and coins were the only ways I knew of that one could get some sort of exposure. This is because you are not investing in the country, obviously, because you are buying them in a secondary or tertiary market. That said, I think the US government is going to make owning stamps illegal too.

There were people once upon a time—and maybe even now—who invested in North Korean debt. I have not done that, but it may be another way that people can invest in North Korea. I don't even know if North Korean debt still trades, but it was defaulted on at some point.

Nick Giambruno: Another hated market that actually does have a pretty vibrant and dynamic stock market is the Tehran Stock Exchange in Iran. Have you ever taken a look at this market?

Jim Rogers: Yes, at one point I did invest in Iran, back in the 1990s and made something like 40 times on my money. I didn't put millions in because there was a limit on how much a person could invest. But this was over 20 years ago. I would like to invest in Iran again, but I don't know the precise details on the sanctions and the current status of Americans being able to invest there. But Iran is certainly on my list. And so are Libya and Syria. I'm not doing anything at the moment in these countries, but they are places that are on my list.

Nick Giambruno: Switching gears a little, do you have any final words for people who are thinking about internationalizing some aspect of their lives or their savings?

Jim Rogers: Most people have a health insurance policy, a life insurance policy, fire insurance, and car insurance. You hope that you never have to use these insurance policies, but you have them anyway. I feel the same way about what you call internationalizing, but I call it insurance. Everybody should have some of their money invested outside of their own country, outside of their own currency. No matter how positive things are in your home country, something could go wrong.

I obviously do it for many other reasons than that. I do it because I think I can make some money finding opportunities outside your own country. Many people are a little reluctant, you know. It's tough to leave your safe haven. So I try to explain to them, "Well, you have fire insurance, why don't you look on investing abroad as another kind of insurance?" and usually what happens is people get more accustomed to it. And they often invest more and more abroad because they say, "Oh, my gosh, look at these opportunities. Why didn't somebody tell us there are all these things out there?"

Nick Giambruno: Jim, would you like to tell us about your most recent book, Street Smarts: Adventures on the Road and in the Markets? I'd strongly encourage our readers to check it out by clicking here.

Jim Rogers: I've done a few books before, and then my publisher and agent said, "Look, it sounds like it must be quite a story to have come from the back woods of Alabama to living in Asia with a couple of blue-eyed girls who speak perfect Mandarin. How did this happen? Why don't you pull this all together and it might be an interesting story?" So I did, somewhat reluctantly at first, and then, lo and behold, people tell me it's my best book. Whether it is or not, I will have to let other people decide, but that's how it happened, and that's what it is.

Nick Giambruno: Jim, thank you for your time and unique insight into these fascinating topics.
Jim Rogers: You're welcome. Let's do it again sometime.


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Crisis Investing in Action

By Nick Giambruno, Senior Editor, International Man

Stocks in Cyprus Are Down 98%—Time to Start Edging In?

Readers who have been with us for a while know that I've been hinting at the project Doug Casey and I have been working on in Cyprus for a while now. It's a project that dovetails perfectly with Doug's unique expertise. Now is the time to reveal what we have been up to.

Nick Giambruno: Doug, you are one of the foremost authorities in the world on the topic of crisis investing. Tell us about your background on this topic and the potential for life-changing gains it offers for those who have the intestinal fortitude to speculate in crisis markets.

Doug Casey: After my second book, Crisis Investing, [buy it here on Amazon.com] came out in 1979, I started publishing a newsletter. I used the Chinese symbol for crisis as the logo.

It is actually a combination of two symbols: the symbol for danger and the symbol for opportunity. The danger is what everybody sees; the opportunity is never quite so obvious as the danger, but it's always there.

Speculating in crisis markets is the ultimate way to be a contrarian, which means buying when nobody else wants to buy.

It is true, as a general rule, that you want to "make the trend your friend." But there always comes an inflection point when trends change because a market becomes either greatly overvalued or greatly undervalued. And when any market is down by 90% or more, you've got to reflexively look at it, no matter how bad the news is, and see if it's a place where you want to put some speculative capital.

Nick: Massive fortunes have been made throughout history with crisis investing. Was Baron Rothschild right when he said the time to buy is when blood is in the streets?

Doug: That's a very famous aphorism, of course. It was supposedly occasioned by the Battle of Waterloo, when he was buying British securities while the issue was in doubt. He was able to pull off that coup because he made sure that he got the information as to whether Wellington beat Napoleon a day before anybody else did. He recognized that Europe was in a period of tremendous crisis; Napoleon, after all, was actually kind of a proto-Hitler.

But a key point here is that a successful speculator capitalizes on politically caused distortions in the market.
If we lived in a completely free-market world—one without government interventions like taxes, regulations, inflation, war, persecutions, and the like—it would be impossible to speculate, in the sense I'm using the word.

But we don't live in a free-market world, so there are lots of good, speculative opportunities that, in effect, let you turn a lemon into lemonade.

And a good speculative opportunity is both high potential and low risk—not high potential and high risk. Most people don't understand that.

Nick: That brings to mind the Russian oligarchs, who became oligarchs in the first place because they did some crisis investing, i.e., they bought when the blood was in the streets and picked up some of the crown jewels of the Russian economy for literally pennies on the dollar. Are similar opportunities a possibility today in other countries?

Doug: It's interesting with the oligarchs because in the Soviet Union, everybody got certificates, which were traded for shares in businesses that were being privatized. The average person had no idea what they were or how to value them. The people who became oligarchs were able to buy them up for a couple of pennies on the dollar, taking advantage of the negative public hysteria following the collapse of the Soviet Union.
So this is a recurring theme—buying when the blood is in the streets. It's what speculation is all about: namely, taking advantage of politically caused distortions in the marketplace, or taking advantage of the aberrations of mass psychology.

Nick: Exactly—and that was the main reason why you and I were recently in Cyprus. We were there to see if that recent crisis presented a contrarian opportunity.

We all know what happened with the bank deposit confiscations and the capital controls, and most people would think you'd have to be crazy to put money into such an environment. Tell us how Cyprus fits into the theme of crisis investing.

Doug: What drew my attention to it was the fact that the Cyprus stock market is down 98% from its all-time high in October 2007. That's like a bell ringing at the bottom of the market. So I thought it was critical to go and get boots on the ground to see what the story really was.

It's down about as much as any market index has been in history, which makes it a unique opportunity. In any case, it was worth seeing whether or not it's really only worth 2% of what it was at its peak.

I'm not saying that we are absolutely at the bottom. I'm just saying that now is the time to pay close attention because when any market is down 90%, you're obligated to go and investigate.

Whether you buy when it is down 98% or you wait for it to be down 99%—which amounts to another 50% drop—is perhaps like looking a gift horse in the mouth.

Nick: Let's talk about the intrinsic value of Cyprus throughout history that comes from its geography—being at the crossroads of Asia, the Middle East, Africa, and Europe. Does the collapse in the paper Ponzi scheme banking system diminish Cyprus's natural value, or do you think it creates some interesting speculative opportunities?

Doug: Cyprus not only presents a tremendous speculative opportunity, but it is also quite instructive.
The banking sector there got quite out of control; it's similar to what has happened to the banking sector in other countries, like Iceland and Ireland in the recent past. But it's also predictive of what's very likely going to happen to larger banking systems in the near future.

Essentially, Cyprus became a favorite place for people of many nationalities—particularly, Russians—to put money that they wanted to diversify offshore.

The banks became overwhelmed with large amounts of money that dwarfed their capital. When a bank takes money in, it's got to find something to do with that money, and when the local economy couldn't absorb much of it, they became quite reckless.

Since most Cypriots are Greek-speakers, they naturally looked to Athens and wound up buying a lot of Greek government bonds, partly for patriotic reasons and partly because the yields were higher than elsewhere.

Once the Greek government bonds went south, it wiped out the capital base of the Cypriot banks that had purchased them. The Cypriot government was not in a financial position to bail them out, so instead they had what is called a bail-in, where large depositors took a haircut.

Nick: So, what kinds of speculative opportunities have been created from this crisis?

Doug: In all chaotic situations, in all true crisis situations, the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater. Everybody has decided that they don't want to have anything to do with a stock market whose index is down 98%.

But the fact of the matter is that there are sound, productive, and well-run businesses that are listed on the Cyprus Stock Exchange that got caught up in the maelstrom. There are businesses that will continue to produce earnings and pay dividends.

As Damon Runyon famously said, "The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet."

The country has some unique advantages going for it. Cyprus is a place where Warren Buffett would be looking if the market weren't so tiny. It's also quite illiquid now because most people who needed to sell have already done so, but almost everybody is still too afraid to buy.

That said, I think it's time to start edging in.

We also looked at opportunities the crisis has created in the real estate market.

Nick: We should be clear that we are not necessarily talking about investing here. This is a long-term speculation. Can you elaborate on the differences?

Doug: I think it is critical to use words accurately and precisely, so that we know exactly what we are talking about. "Investing" is about allocating capital so that it can be used productively and produce more capital. "Speculating" is different. As I said before, speculating is about capitalizing on politically caused distortions in the marketplace.

One way this is pertinent to Cyprus is the fact that this is the first time the bail-in model was used and a government didn't step in to make depositors whole. That wiped out billions of euros and depressed the prices of financial assets.

People often confuse speculators with traders, who try to scalp a couple of basis points over a short period of time. What we are doing with Cyprus is not a trade. This is a speculation, and a good speculation can take a considerable amount of time to work itself out.

Nick: In order to take advantage of these opportunities and speculate on this market, one realistically needs to have a Cypriot brokerage account.

It's a testament to the chilling effects of FATCA and other US regulations that the vast majority of financial institutions in Cyprus, which are extremely desperate for cash, won't even consider dealing with American citizens.

And if Cypriot financial institutions won't deal with American clients, who will? Do you think the chilling effects of FATCA really amount to de facto capital controls for Americans?

Doug: Yes. US citizens have had draconian reporting requirements on what they do with their money abroad for years. But the new FATCA law has taken it to a new level.

Essentially, what it does is impose severe compliance burdens on foreign financial institutions that take an American client. It really makes the foreign banks, brokers, and other financial institutions unpaid employees of the US government.

This is expensive, legally onerous, and actually ethically questionable as far as their relationship with their clients. So, for this reason, there are very few non-US financial institutions anywhere that are still willing to take US customers. It's increasingly hard, and in some cases impossible, for an American now to get money out of the country, simply because nobody is going to take it.

I think as the global economic crisis that started in 2007 gets worse—and there is every reason to believe it's going to get worse, since we're just in the eye of the storm at the moment—these regulations will become even more onerous, and are likely to spread from the US to other countries.

So the takeaway from this is that your most important form of diversification in the world today is not diversification across investment classes—although that's very important. It's political diversification, so that all of your assets aren't under the control of one political entity, one government.

Here's how you can get in…

The opportunity for contrarians in Cyprus is great, but it's hugely important to analyze and evaluate all of the options. Doug and Nick's recent trip gave them great insights into the real economic situation in Cyprus and the companies located there. After getting their boots on the ground, Doug and Nick found quite a few pigs with copious amounts of lipstick applied… and a few shining gems, too—quality Cypriot stocks trading for tremendous crisis-driven bargains.

You don't need to take a trip to Cyprus yourself to get the lay of the land. Doug and Nick have written a special report titled Crisis Investing in Cyprus detailing their trip and offering the top investment picks they found on the Cyprus Stock Exchange. In it, you'll find detailed information of the best way to access these amazing opportunities from your living room, the real story on the ground, and much more.

The two of them also found a solution to the brokerage dilemma—they investigated every single brokerage on the island and found one willing to open accounts for American citizens remotely and without the need to visit the country.

All the details and on-the-ground contacts are in their report, which shows you exactly how to access the opportunities on the Cyprus Stock Exchange from your computer.

Crisis Investing in Cyprus is a crucial tool for taking the destructive actions of a desperate government and turning them on their head… and to your advantage.

For a limited time, you can get the report with a savings of 50% off the retail price of $199. That's just $99 for a huge speculative opportunity, penned by Doug Casey—the man who literally wrote the book on crisis investing. To get in on these opportunities, act now before the price discount is no longer offered.

Click here for more details.


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